Episode 14
The Promise and Problem of Longevity Testing; Prevention, Access and the Inequality in the field with Niko Hems
What does good prevention actually look like, and is the longevity industry helping people live better, or simply making health feel more complicated?
In this episode of Beyond Longevity, Daphna speaks with Niko Hems, Operations Lead at YEARS, a longevity clinic in Berlin, Germany.
Niko brings a rare perspective to the conversation. He works inside the longevity field, but he is not afraid to challenge it. He believes deeply in prevention, yet he is sharply aware of where the industry can go wrong, from over-testing and over-promising to fringe science and the uncomfortable gap between those who can afford cutting-edge healthcare and those who are still struggling to access the basics.
His own story makes this especially interesting. At 13, Niko became fascinated by nutrition and fitness while trying to gain weight and feel better in his body. Years later, after completing a Master’s in Longevity Sciences and working inside one of Germany’s leading longevity clinics, he put himself through the kinds of tests many people now associate with the future of health, including genome sequencing, microbiome analysis and more than 200 biomarkers.
The result was not quite what he expected. Instead of clarity, much of it created anxiety. Instead of answers, it raised a harder question: when does prevention become too much?
This is a refreshingly honest conversation about the promises and problems of modern longevity, the tests that help versus the ones that confuse, the basics that still matter most, and what a more credible, useful and accessible version of prevention could look like.
Niko Hems Head of Growth at YEARS.
Host of Return on Health podcast.
Links:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/niko-hems/
00:00 Podcast intro and themes
01:52 Nico’s path into longevity
03:37 Defining longevity and healthspan
04:47 Peakspan explained
06:26 Basics that move the needle
08:32 When testing becomes anxiety
10:07 Inside the Years clinic model
14:26 Cost access and inequality
15:58 Who buys high-end programs
17:55 What 16K actually includes
20:43 Why behaviour change is hard
24:07 Are we really getting healthier
26:04 Lifespan hype vs healthspan focus
28:25 Prevention Over Testing
29:23 Affordable Core Diagnostics
30:50 Why Healthcare Lags
32:58 Fixing Incentives
37:37 Longevity Branding Problem
41:09 Basics That Move Needle
43:28 Free High Impact Habits
46:22 AI And Longevity Future
52:04 Rapid Fire Wrap Up
53:42 Final Takeaways
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker A:Welcome to Beyond Longevity, the podcast that explores not just how we age, but how we can build a longer, healthier future for ourselves.
Speaker B:My guest today on Beyond Longevity is Nico Hems from Years, a longevity clinic based in Berlin.
Speaker B:What makes this conversation interesting is that he works in a field built around testing and prevention.
Speaker B:Yet Nico is very candid about the fact that more testing is not always better and not everything being sold in longevity is actually helping people.
Speaker B:In this conversation we talk about what people are really looking for when they seek out longevity care, what good prevention should mean in practice, and why more testing can sometimes create more confusion than clarity.
Speaker B:Nico is very clear that not every test is necessarily useful, that data on its own does not solve much, and that one of the more uncomfortable realities in this space is the widening gap between those who can afford extensive testing and those who cannot.
Speaker B:We also talk about something even more fundamental, which is that many of the biggest gains in long term health are not glamorous, high tech or expensive sleep exercise.
Speaker B:And the basics still matter enormously, even in a field increasingly crowded with advanced tools, bold claims and promises of precision.
Speaker B:So this is a conversation about hype and substance, access and inequality, and what it would take to build a model of health that is not just more sophisticated, but actually more useful.
Speaker A:Hi Nico, thank you so much for coming on Beyond Longevity today.
Speaker A:You're not a doctor, you're not a researcher, you're not a clinician, and yet you are deeply involved in the longevity field.
Speaker A:Tell us how, why and everything else.
Speaker C:Really good question.
Speaker C:I think it all started when I was 13ish years old.
Speaker C:13 Or 14 years old.
Speaker C:I'm pretty tall, I'm close to 2 meters, 6 foot 6 and I was pretty slim back then.
Speaker C:I was weighing like around 70 kilos which was close to being underweight according to BMI.
Speaker C:And I felt pretty uncomfortable in my body, so really wanted to change that.
Speaker C:This is what's pretty much what got me into health in general.
Speaker C:This got me going to the gym, this got me reading pretty much every nutrition and gym book out there, really got deep into all of the topics.
Speaker C:Then came the podcast, listens to all of the podcasts and this really was always my passion, always my side project.
Speaker C:And then when I started studying and studying business and data analytics all of the time, I was wondering also while working, what am I actually doing right now?
Speaker C:Because most of the work I did, which was consultancy, financial work, M and A, all of this, this really wasn't aligned with my values, with my passion.
Speaker C:So then while doing a Master's abroad in Berkeley, close to San Francisco.
Speaker C:I decided that I needed to move into the field of longevity, also full time with my work as well.
Speaker C:And then pretty much went all in, did my master's in longevity at gcls, which is Geneva College of Longevity Sciences, and also started working at the Years, which is a longevity clinic in Germany, Berlin.
Speaker A:I understand young people getting into health or fitness, that's understandable.
Speaker A:But why longevity?
Speaker C:That's a really good question.
Speaker C:And also I think there comes the question, what really is longevity?
Speaker C:I mean, we don't really have a clear definition of longevity.
Speaker C:There are words around healthspan, lifespan now also peak span, which I think, by the way, it's an interesting concept.
Speaker C:For me, longevity mainly is about health span or peak span.
Speaker C:So really staying young when you are old, or really staying capable, really staying flexible, that you, when you are like 70 or 80 years old, that you can still hang out with your family, you still can hang out with your friends.
Speaker C:Because from my own personal experience, and I think this was also one thing that got me into longevity, I always saw my grandma not doing really well.
Speaker C:She had hip operations, she had knee problems, all of this stuff.
Speaker C:She couldn't really move that well for like the past five to 10 years even.
Speaker C:She was always sick, so really wasn't doing well.
Speaker C:She still smiled.
Speaker C:But I was 100% sure that inside she isn't doing well most of the time.
Speaker C:And so I really wanted to change that.
Speaker C:And also I really didn't want this to happen to me when I grew older.
Speaker C:So this was pretty much what got me into longevity, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker A:I love the new word that you mentioned.
Speaker A:I personally haven't heard it.
Speaker A:Peak span.
Speaker A:Elaborate a little bit on that.
Speaker C:I learned this recently as well while I was doing a podcast with Roberta.
Speaker C:She's an MD, PhD, and she works in a longevity clinic.
Speaker C:And she also came across this concept of peak span.
Speaker C:And peak span, if we say, for example, lifespan is obviously the years left.
Speaker C:So if you 90 years old, your lifespan is 90 years old.
Speaker C:Or when you die at 90 years old, healthspan is the years lived in good health.
Speaker C:But then also if we talk about peak span, peak span generally could be the same as healthspan.
Speaker C:But as she said, or like she read as well from, from different experts all around the world, that peak span is even your maximum capacity that you have as a human.
Speaker C:Most of us probably aren't operating at maximum capacity due to different reasons.
Speaker C:One of the main reasons being stress.
Speaker C:We are constantly working we are not aligned with anything humans should be aligned with, which is mostly nature and all of this stuff.
Speaker C:So this probably is the case in most of the people, maybe even all people, especially in western countries.
Speaker C:And so peak span is pretty much your peak capability as a human, cognitively, physically, like for all of the different things.
Speaker C:And you want to keep the peak span as long as possible into high age or even reach it, which most people haven't reached probably.
Speaker A:I was just going to ask you that because even peak span at any age is quite a challenge.
Speaker A:How does one reach peak span and how do we know we've reached it?
Speaker C:Probably haven't gotten any answer to this.
Speaker C:The things which really move the needle, also in longevity, and if we say longevity should be defined as peak span, then the things that really move the needle are often the basics.
Speaker C:So like having proper nutrition, eating whole foods, eating the best available food sources you got, don't eat too many calories, eat enough protein, eat healthy fats, those things eat enough fiber.
Speaker C:Then sports, going to the gym, so strength training as well as cardiovascular exercise, zone 2 training and then also VO2 max training.
Speaker C:A good mix of that, if you can do it, is probably really good.
Speaker C:Then sleep, obviously seven to nine hours, ish, cold bedroom, dark environment.
Speaker C:Those three are the things that probably all of us know.
Speaker C:And then there are more things to the equation and not enough people talk about this.
Speaker C:And I think in my personal opinion those are also the main drivers of a lot of the things which make us not reach peak spend.
Speaker C:One of the main culprits is stress, especially in western countries, Europe, USA or wherever.
Speaker C:Most people are working desk jobs right now.
Speaker C:They are stressed all of the time.
Speaker C:Now in the time of AI, even more stressed because most people can't find a job.
Speaker C:I have friends who have master's degrees who can't find a job, which is crazy.
Speaker C:So stress is on an all time high.
Speaker C:Then also like community sense of belonging, most people don't really know what they want to do with their life.
Speaker C:But research has shown all of the time that community sense of belonging, what you are doing with your life really equates to better health outcomes as well.
Speaker C:So this is really interesting.
Speaker C:We are mostly not aligned with that anymore.
Speaker C:And then also we as humans pretty much are not doing anything which we are supposed to be doing, which is like being outside in nature, having sunlight, all of this stuff.
Speaker C:And I think those things are the things which would move us way closer to peak spend if we can ever reach our peak or whatever.
Speaker C:What even is Our peach I think is not clear yet, but this would definitely move us closer towards the right direction.
Speaker A:You not think for some people trying to reach that peak span is another cause of stress?
Speaker C:That's actually a good one.
Speaker C:I think also this is a huge issue that most people stress too much about their health.
Speaker C:And I was one of them, to be totally honest with you.
Speaker C:Like two to three years back, I pretty much did every test out there.
Speaker C:I did whole genome sequencing, I did like 200 plus biomarkers that microbiome analysis, all of those tests, most of them don't really equate to any actionable change, which first of all is a huge problem.
Speaker C:And for example, the whole genome sequencing I did, which was not medical genome analysis.
Speaker C:So for example GRECA2 gene, which has real consequences, or APOE fear Alzheimer's gene, those have real consequences.
Speaker C:What I did was mostly like lifestyle genetics.
Speaker C:Like the report included 800 different things.
Speaker C:For example, that my knees are supposed to hurt more than the average person.
Speaker C:I was like, what the fuck is that?
Speaker C:That's interesting.
Speaker C:But what am I supposed to do with that or other things?
Speaker C:There were like so many different things.
Speaker C:And this mostly lead to or was leading to more anxiety and me not feeling well, me thinking and stressing all the time about my health.
Speaker C:So really moved away from this because this is not doing us anything good.
Speaker C:But it really depends on the person.
Speaker C:Most people in the longevity space are doing too much.
Speaker C:Most people outside the longevity system are doing not enough.
Speaker C:So you need to find a middle.
Speaker D:Ground, in my opinion.
Speaker A:No, very true.
Speaker A:I absolutely agree with you on that one.
Speaker A:Let's move a little bit into the work that you do.
Speaker A:You work with a longevity clinic in Berlin called Years.
Speaker A:Do you do any testing there or not?
Speaker A:Seeing that, you know, you're a bit critical.
Speaker A:And I tend to agree with you that testing one should be a little bit critical of it.
Speaker A:But what do you do at the clinic if somebody walks through your door and says, here I am.
Speaker C:We do have different programs, three different tiers.
Speaker C:And when we take the basic program, which is already pretty extensive, the core program, then we have like the most important things inside the program.
Speaker C:Like, for example 87 different biomarkers.
Speaker C:Most of them are really actionable, for example fasting glucose, fasting insulin.
Speaker C:So you can see if you going anywhere near a diabetes or pre diabetes.
Speaker C:We have a HOMA index, we have apob, we have lp.
Speaker C:So a risk factor for cardiovascular disease, which I personally have.
Speaker C:So this is definitely a thing you should know and everybody should at least Once in their life, get their LP little age checked.
Speaker C:I think it's around 20 to 25 years, at least in Germany, probably not expensive all around the world.
Speaker C:So you should definitely get this one checked.
Speaker C:And then we have different organ values, all of this.
Speaker C:Most of the things are pretty basic, but you normally don't check them at your gp.
Speaker C:So this is definitely a thing, I think at least.
Speaker C:And the most doctors at years I talked about, about, they think the same, obviously.
Speaker C:I mean, otherwise it wouldn't work.
Speaker C:Ideas?
Speaker C:I know most of the MDs, I know they think the same.
Speaker C:And then we also have functional diagnostics, 25 different things.
Speaker C:For example, VO2 max testing, body platysmography, which is a lung function testing.
Speaker C:We have eye testing, ear function testing, which, for example, your eyes and ears are strongly correlated to different things.
Speaker C:Especially for example, if you have hearing loss strongly correlated to neurodegenerative disease, which is really interesting.
Speaker C:So most people think, okay, hearing loss doesn't matter, but it does matter.
Speaker C:That's just one thing I just quickly wanted to mention.
Speaker C:And then also extensive ultrasound analysis of all of your organs, also of your vessels, so you can check for icvd, beginning cardiovascular disease, plaque in your arteries, which is definitely good to know.
Speaker C:If you have this, you should definitely intervene there.
Speaker C:And this is pretty much a program.
Speaker C:Then this is the most important part.
Speaker C:All of this gets checked by our physicians, which are all internal medicine specialists, internal medicine physicians.
Speaker C:And they will go through all of the data and then they will explain to you, okay, these are the things you need to worry about.
Speaker C:For example, there's a red value, but this doesn't matter.
Speaker C:This doesn't really matter because of X, Y, Z, they know it, you probably don't.
Speaker C:You would probably worry about this red value.
Speaker C:But they can tell you, like, okay, this is what we need to do.
Speaker C:Don't worry about this.
Speaker C:This is the action plan in 3, 6, 12 months, you need to go here, you need to do this in order to reach X.
Speaker C:So this is really the most important part, like that you have a person, especially a physician, a skilled physician with years of medical expertise on your side who guides you the way.
Speaker C:And then for people who want to know more and who also want to go towards a more experimental route, we have bigger problems evolve and ultimate.
Speaker C:And they include diagnostics which are not yet 100% there, or like have 100% actionability and don't have any downsides.
Speaker C:For example, a full body mi, which definitely has some downsides.
Speaker C:For example, if you find something you're not really sure about.
Speaker C:Then you need to do a biopsy.
Speaker C:This leads to anxiety.
Speaker C:So a lot of problems there.
Speaker C:But this is also only for the people who really want to know everything, who want to go this deep and they still have a physician on their side saying, okay, don't worry about this.
Speaker C:And this is pretty much the most important thing.
Speaker A:So 800 biomarkers like you did is too much, but the tenth of it, that's what we should all do.
Speaker C:I mean, it really depends on the person and how much money you have, what you can actually afford.
Speaker C:I think also with like let's say 10 biomarkers, you can already go pretty far.
Speaker C:But if you want to know a lot and if you really want to take your health into your own hands, really move it forwards.
Speaker C:For example, our again, quote unquote small program is probably a good way to go.
Speaker A:What do the people do that can't afford it?
Speaker C:That's also one of the things we want to change as well, because our small program, again, it's not really small, cost €1,900, which is quite a lot for most people.
Speaker C:And obviously public health insurance does not fund this in any way.
Speaker C:You don't get a single cent back from your health insurance as long as you are not privately insured.
Speaker C:Private insurance in Germany at least covers most of the small program, which is already probably a problem.
Speaker C:That's a different topic, I think for people who can't afford this yet, they should probably go to your GP in Germany or wherever you live in Europe.
Speaker C:Use a Doesn't really matter.
Speaker C:Go to your gp, get the things checked that matter most.
Speaker C:You can talk with your GP about this.
Speaker C:For example, things like ap, little A, apob, ldl, hdl triglycerides, fasting glucose, fasting insulin, get those things measured and then do the basics.
Speaker C:That's most important.
Speaker C:And that doesn't really cost that much.
Speaker C:You need a gym membership.
Speaker C:You maybe don't even need a gym membership.
Speaker C:You can also go outside and just do some push ups, do some pull ups and go for a run.
Speaker C:That will also do most of the work.
Speaker C:And then you need to eat somewhat healthy.
Speaker C:You don't need to overstress.
Speaker C:I mean, sleep is for free mostly, but then there are also people working night shifts.
Speaker C:So that's another problem.
Speaker C:I think you don't have a perfect answer for everybody, sadly.
Speaker C:But I wouldn't stress too much about it.
Speaker C:Just do the things you can actually do and talk to experts.
Speaker A:Mainly being your gp, so specifically your clinic in Berlin.
Speaker A:Who's the Average person that walks through the door, young, old woman, man, sick, healthy, I don't know.
Speaker C:As you can imagine, this really, really differs from program to program because for example, our high end program, which is called ultimate, costs around 16k, which is quite a lot to spend for your health.
Speaker C:I mean it's maybe it's a good investment for your health and if you have enough money, could make sense.
Speaker C:But for most people it definitely does not make sense to spend 16k euros per year on like those extremely deep diagnostics, to be totally honest with you.
Speaker C:And like in the Evolve program, cost around 8K 7, 6K, pretty much the same.
Speaker C:So like in those two programs, you mainly see CEOs, you mainly see founders, you mainly see executives, the people you, you imagine paying that much for a program, which makes sense again because it's so expensive and they are mainly like 30 to 60 years old, mostly high performers.
Speaker C:Most of them are somewhat healthy, obviously.
Speaker C:Lot of, but this is, I mean, pretty obvious.
Speaker C:And then for our core program, our basic program, you have pretty much everybody, like different ages, different genders, you have pretty much everybody, to be totally honest, you have sick people, you have healthy people, you have young people, you have old people, you have women, you have men.
Speaker C:We have pretty much everyone from like 20 to 80 years old, I think.
Speaker C:So like, I mean there isn't really a target group there.
Speaker C:It's like most of the people do care about the health, but this isn't even the case for everybody.
Speaker C:Some people just got pushed by their children, for example, to go to two years because they saw our Instagram or whatever.
Speaker C:They, they listen to any podcast and they are telling their parents, okay, you need to go there, you need to take your health seriously.
Speaker C:Just go there, do a checkup.
Speaker C:And they don't know anything.
Speaker C:So totally different people.
Speaker A:Okay, so now indulge us normal listeners a little bit and tell us, for the €16,000 program, what does one get?
Speaker A:Do I come in as an old, whatever person that can hardly walk and I leave as a young spring chicken?
Speaker A:Or what do I get for the 16k?
Speaker C:That would be amazing.
Speaker C:That would be a good outcome.
Speaker C:Yes, but we definitely cannot promise that at all.
Speaker C:And we also will not promise that at all.
Speaker C:There are different players all around the world who will promise stuff like this, but we definitely don't, that's for sure.
Speaker C:And what you get for the 16k is like pretty much the most comprehensive diagnostics you can get across Germany for sure, probably also across Europe, and pretty comparable to the big players in, in the US which are also pretty advanced.
Speaker C:You get pretty much everything you, you can, you get genome analysis, medical grade genome analysis, not those random lifestyle genetics I quickly talked about with knee pain or whatever, which doesn't really make sense.
Speaker C:And there isn't really any data to, to back this up even.
Speaker C:You get microbiome testing, you get full body mri, you get a liquid biopsy, which is a new cancer detection test.
Speaker C:It's quite new.
Speaker C:And it's still heavily research based and not there yet.
Speaker C:So it's still used as an experimental research grade diagnostics tool at years, but we still use it and we also run our own research on it to see if it makes sense to use it or not.
Speaker C:And also the physicians obviously interpret it in a way that it makes sense and to be cautious with the results and all of this.
Speaker C:Then you get 230ish biomarkers, so blood biomarkers and urine biomarkers, which is quite a lot.
Speaker C:You get all of the functional diagnostics.
Speaker C:And then you also get coaching, which is definitely a thing heavily underrated I think because the one thing which you need in order for such a program to actually work is adherence.
Speaker C:And to have adherence, I think it's easiest if you have somebody on your side who's constantly pushing you.
Speaker C:So we have the nutrition coach, we have a sports coach and we also have on demand a sleep coach as well.
Speaker C:Because those are the most important things.
Speaker C:And those people over the year, this is a one year program will push you to get to your pretty much best state.
Speaker C:And then you also have quality check ins again to check for the most important values.
Speaker C:You have check ins with your internal medicine physician again, always the same doctor, always the same physician.
Speaker C:So that he knows your history, he knows you as a person and all of that.
Speaker C:But this is pretty much what you get for the 16k program.
Speaker C:We don't promise anything.
Speaker C:We, we don't sell a miracle drug.
Speaker C:You don't need to swallow a red pill and then you will get healthy.
Speaker C:You still need to do the work yourself, but that's pretty much what you get.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you've mentioned something really interesting here and this is sort of the self motivation or the fact that you actually need to do something.
Speaker A:And let's go back from these probably 0.001% of people who are going to spend that sort of money.
Speaker A:But talk about the, you know, the average person.
Speaker A:Why do you think people find it so difficult to change their behavior with basic things?
Speaker A:You know, just do a little bit more sports, sleep a little bit More things that are for free, so they don't cost any money, they don't really require a lot of effort.
Speaker A:Why do you think it is still so hard for us as humans to change our behavior to this lack of follow through, even though we know it would do us good?
Speaker C:I think there are many reasons, at least to my opinion.
Speaker C:One of the biggest reasons for that is that we completely wrecked our brain.
Speaker C:Our brain is not functioning anymore at all, to be totally honest, because we are constantly stressed, we are constantly distracted, we are constantly looking at our phones and scrolling through 1 million different emotions in like one hour, which wasn't even possible like 200 or even 100 or even 50 years ago.
Speaker C:So we are not adapted to such enormous distractions, to such enormous emotional changes.
Speaker C:We are not, we are just biologically evolutionary, not adapted at all to those things which are mainly like TikTok or Instagram Reels or pretty much every platform now has those short form videos.
Speaker C:And so I've myself tried to not look at any reels or TikToks at all.
Speaker C:But still, even when I delete apps, I still find the urge sometimes to, oh, okay, I need to scroll because it's so addicting.
Speaker C:And I think because of this, because of our work stress, because of we as humans being mostly constantly overwhelmed with things due to all of the reasons I mentioned, I think it's really hard to change anything because also we don't get like normally back in the time, you will get a dopamine rush afterwards if you do something that actually changes.
Speaker C:But now this whole dopamine system is completely wrecked, it's completely overworked.
Speaker C:So how in the world is our body supposed to behave naturally if we don't do things which are natural to us in the sense of like evolutionary or biological perspective.
Speaker C:So I think those are the main things which are the roadblocks in our way to become the best version of ourselves.
Speaker C:So we first need to remove them as best as possible.
Speaker C:Probably deleting all of the apps is best.
Speaker C:Do a social media detox, maybe even get a dumb phone.
Speaker C:I still haven't gotten one, but always thinking about it, but it's a bit too tempting to have all those apps on your phone.
Speaker C:It's crazy.
Speaker C:It's crazy to think that like 15, 20 years ago you, you haven't gotten anything like this.
Speaker C:So yeah, I think those are the main reasons to, to be totally honest, if we don't fix this, I think it's really hard to fix downstream things because they are way, way harder because of our system not working properly.
Speaker C:It's really hard to, to get any sort of new transmitter benefit, get any rush, get any feeling of happiness or that you actually achieve something when you do things which take time, which require work.
Speaker C:So for me, those are the main reasons.
Speaker C:Yeah, in my opinion, like you said,.
Speaker A:There is a lot of talk on all the social media platforms and everywhere about prevention, optimization, longevity, all these things.
Speaker A:But do you think as a society we're actually getting healthier or we're just becoming more preoccupied with health and getting healthier and all this?
Speaker C:One thing is for sure that we as humans, due to technological innovation, hygiene improvements, mainly vaccines, all of those public health measures mainly we increased lifespan by a lot, by like 20, 30 years.
Speaker C:Depends on what the timeframe is you compare this year right now to.
Speaker C:We definitely increased lifespan by like decades even.
Speaker C:So that's the thing, which is for sure.
Speaker C:But the question right now is if we are actually healthier.
Speaker C:And this question is.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think not, not sure would be my answer because obviously we live longer now, but like 10, 15 years of the last years we live in our Life.
Speaker C:The last 10, 15 years we live are mostly spent in bad health.
Speaker C:Often like for example, my, my grandmother, she couldn't even walk anymore.
Speaker C:She wasn't happy most of the time.
Speaker C:Had pain all of the time, pretty much she was on ibuprofen 800 pretty much every day, which is crazy.
Speaker C:Or also took, yeah, more sophisticated pain drugs, morphine and different stuff which, which has downsides as well.
Speaker C:And then you feel even worse.
Speaker C:So don't even want to get started with this.
Speaker C:But I think we as a society, especially in our last decade, we are not healthy at all.
Speaker C:And in general, if we speak about our whole population, speaking about western countries right now, because obviously in Africa, for different other countries, it's different, but we extended lifespan, but we didn't really extend healthspan by that much, to be totally honest.
Speaker A:Do you think that the longevity market as a whole is chasing more the lifespan rather than the health span span, or do you think that there is a balance or how do you see that?
Speaker C:This really depends on where you are looking at.
Speaker C:For example, there are scientists like David Sinclair, who's a Harvard professor, Harvard scientist, has his own lab and he's doing a lot of research into longevity in terms of especially lifespan extension.
Speaker C:So he's an advocate for this theory of longevity escape velocity, which pretty much means if you live within one year, the science moves forward in a way that you can extend your life by one year and Then that way you can pretty much live indefinitely until the very end of the universe, pretty much.
Speaker C:And for this theory we don't really have any science to back this up, to be totally honest.
Speaker C:For example, he's doing with rapamycin for example, or metformin or different other drugs who are being investigated, especially in mouse.
Speaker C:And there they lead to lifespan extension by as much I think as 30% or something like this.
Speaker C:But in humans we don't have any data yet.
Speaker C:And also there's a problem with aging trials in general.
Speaker C:They do take a lot of time obviously, because if you start at 50 or 60 and then the person gets, I don't know, 80 or 90, you have a 20 to 30 year time span.
Speaker C:And this costs enormous amounts of money.
Speaker C:So who's even going to fund this?
Speaker C:So this is one direction, all this longevity, escape velocity, lifespan movement, for example.
Speaker C:Brian Johnson is also a part of this.
Speaker C:He also believes in the longevity escape velocity.
Speaker C:He wants to live indefinitely.
Speaker C:His movement is called don't die.
Speaker C:So I mean it's pretty obvious.
Speaker C:But then I think those people under minority, especially right now, because we more and more move towards this field of health span on our peak span, preventative medicine in general, if we are being completely honest, and also public health measures to improve healthspan all across the different countries, I think this is the majority of the longevity world.
Speaker C:And this is also what I believe we should focus on.
Speaker C:If we don't extend healthspan, what's even in the worth of extending lifespan by even like 5 to 10 years?
Speaker C:Why would we want to suffer 5 to 10 years more if we live in bad health?
Speaker C:Doesn't really make any sense to me.
Speaker C:So first we need to solve the equation around health span or peak span and then we can focus on lifespan.
Speaker C:But I think as I said, most of the people are focusing on healthspan, which is good.
Speaker A:You've mentioned prevention.
Speaker A:What does good prevention look like to you?
Speaker C:As I said in the past I pretty much did everything.
Speaker C:And back then I thought, okay, this is the way we need to behave in order to have the best possible outcomes.
Speaker C:This is the way preventative medicine should be.
Speaker C:But it was mostly wrong.
Speaker C:When I think back now, I think for example, as I said, the whole genome testing I did or the microbiome analysis didn't really deliver any actionable insights.
Speaker C:So it doesn't really make sense to test this.
Speaker C:Even so for me it's the balance between having enough diagnostics and having enough testing done to know where you stand.
Speaker C:But don't do too much to not stress about this, too much to don't develop anxiety.
Speaker C:So for me, for example, as an employee of years, I obviously do the year's core program every year.
Speaker C:We get that as a bonus, which is quite nice to be honest.
Speaker C:It's a nice employee benefit and I do this program every year.
Speaker C:Now if I wouldn't work at years and as of right now, for me, I think even the €2,000 would be a bit too expensive for me, I would maybe go to years, like every two years.
Speaker C:Ish.
Speaker C:This is a bit more affordable for me.
Speaker C:But if I wouldn't be able to afford this, I would probably do an extensive blood panel either at my GP or at blood diagnostic startups like Aware, for example in Germany or Lucis Life or Superpower or Function Health.
Speaker C:I think functional health being the biggest in the us, I would do something like this and then I would do maybe VO2 max testing, which is definitely quite interesting.
Speaker C:And yeah, I mean those are pretty much the things you should know.
Speaker C:Everything else has probably good value as well.
Speaker C:Things like checking your arteries through ultrasound, things like checking your organs, for example, checking your liver if you have pre fatty liver disease, if we can call it like this, those things add value as well.
Speaker C:But if you think in terms of 80, 20, if we think in terms of Pareto, I think most importantly get your basic blood values checked, VO2 max testing and then pretty much do the basics focus on lifestyle.
Speaker C:I think this is the way prevention works right now for most people, to be honest.
Speaker C:And it's also affordable then for most people.
Speaker A:Why do you think mainstream health care doesn't provide maybe not all of these tests, but at least some of them.
Speaker A:Would that not make economical sense and all of that?
Speaker C:Yeah, quite a lot of different reasons actually.
Speaker C:First reason being doctors simply don't have time to focus extensively on patients.
Speaker C:Doctors have around seven minutes per patient and this is the average.
Speaker C:So as you can imagine, some patients are there for like two or three minutes even.
Speaker C:And how are you supposed to evaluate the lifestyle of the person?
Speaker C:How are you supposed to guide them?
Speaker C:How are you supposed to have a deep conversation with them about the things that actually matter to them?
Speaker C:It's just simply not possible.
Speaker C:Then second thing is billing.
Speaker C:Like also my podcast, I talked to a doctor who was Stanford trained, Ali is his name, and he told us as well that like in terms of billing there are just several issues.
Speaker C:Like you don't really have codes to bill properly for prevention, so you can't really make money.
Speaker C:So economically for doctors as well, this doesn't really make too much sense.
Speaker C:Then you always need to build like something weird, something not 100% fitting.
Speaker C:And then also one of the largest issues, insurance.
Speaker C:Economically it would make tremendous sense for insurances to pay for prevention.
Speaker C:But this is only in the long run.
Speaker C:And for example, in Germany, insurances don't have money to spend for investments.
Speaker C:And prevention would be an investment because our eyes are the return on investments.
Speaker C:You would only get this 5 to 10 years, 5 to 15 years even later, then you spend the money.
Speaker C:And they simply can't spend the money right now in this year if they don't get immediate value from it because they don't have money.
Speaker C:And they don't have money because of the government not being able to give them more money.
Speaker C:So this has upstream effects and there's a whole cascade of different issues around this topic.
Speaker C:But I think for those three main reasons, it isn't really mainstream right now.
Speaker C:I think those are the main three reasons.
Speaker A:How can we change this?
Speaker A:Because the fact that there isn't money for prevention.
Speaker A:I've spoken to other people who said, you know, even in governments, the policy making of it, they all realize prevention is the way forward.
Speaker A:This is not something that only few people are aware of.
Speaker A:I think general population knows that prevention is very important.
Speaker A:But how do we break the cycle of not wanting to spend on prevention?
Speaker A:And yet the healthcare system's paying an absolute fortune on then rescuing people and healing them.
Speaker A:What do we do?
Speaker A:What can we do?
Speaker C:This is a question I think about pretty much every day and obviously I don't have the perfect answer and I don't think there even is the perfect answer because we need to change so many things.
Speaker C:For example, we need to change the billing system for doctors.
Speaker C:There need to be options for them to bill for prevention.
Speaker C:And then downstream, those codes they bill for, they need to be paid by insurances downstream.
Speaker C:Another step forward, governments need to be able to give money, more money, specifically with the use case of funding prevention.
Speaker D:Well, I think the two main things here are definitely changing the billing system and then advocating as the society more towards the government that they finally give more money to insurances.
Speaker D:In Germany, for example, we do have some small preventative programs which are really good.
Speaker D:For example, check up 35, you get like your cholesterol.
Speaker D:I think you get your aspirin, blood glucose, you get an ecg, you get a quick talk with the doctor, which is definitely good, which is way better than nothing.
Speaker D:But we kind of expand a bit more.
Speaker D:I think you also get Answer.
Speaker D:Screening, colonoscopy, west cancer screening, those things which are also included in your public health inform.
Speaker D:But we can't go further than this.
Speaker D:And I think this is only able, or this can only be able to.
Speaker D:If the government spends more money on insurance, people gives more money to insurance so that they can invest money.
Speaker D:I think the only way forward.
Speaker D:And for that we as a society need to push the government more so that it moves faster.
Speaker A:Do you think that this is a marketing problem?
Speaker A:Because look, if we look at things like cancer nowadays, there is quite a number of cancer screenings that the general population gets.
Speaker A:Certainly throughout Europe, you know, the US is a different sector, but certainly throughout Europe there is cancer screenings.
Speaker A:Maybe not enough or maybe not as often as we want, but there certainly is.
Speaker A:So I always feel that cancer has a really good ER system.
Speaker A:How can we get cardiovascular diseases or other things that are as important maybe, you know, if not more out there?
Speaker A:And, and I mean I'm asking you, I don't think you have all the answers, but do you have any ideas of how it could be done?
Speaker C:I think it's not necessarily only a marketing problem, but it's definitely also a marketing problem.
Speaker C:As I said, main issues, not enough money.
Speaker C:They don't really have the urge or like the immediate urge to do anything about this.
Speaker C:They mean the government, which is a problem as well.
Speaker C:They don't have any urgency.
Speaker C:So we would need to, to change that and in order to change that, maybe do more marketing, have them have more exposure to those topics.
Speaker C:And I think right now, if you look at the past three to five years, there has been a growing movement in terms of longevity in terms of preventative health, healthspan extension.
Speaker C:So more and more people going into the topic.
Speaker C:More and more podcasts also coming up, big ones being from Brian Johnson, Andrew Huberman, all of those people, they do a great job in terms of marketing.
Speaker C:They don't always do a great job in terms of science communication, but that's a different topic as well.
Speaker C:And I think we need more this, we need to have more awareness all across social media, all across podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple podcasts, Apple Music, whatever it's called.
Speaker C:With this then in the long run equating to more and more people going into this field and then maybe also pushing the government to them feel more urgency.
Speaker C:In the end, I think that's crucial that the government feels urgency.
Speaker C:Okay, now we need to change something and now is the time that the people are pretty much need us to shift into this direction.
Speaker C:They're pretty much forcing us.
Speaker C:This would be, I think, a scenario we would need to have in order to have anything changed at all.
Speaker C:Because obviously the government does not want to spend any more money on anything actually.
Speaker A:But do you think that's also maybe because the word longevity doesn't sound urgent enough?
Speaker A:It sounds like a luxury.
Speaker A:A working class person might think, what do I care about longevity?
Speaker A:You know, I have my bills to pay, I have things to do, I'm happy if I live to whatever, 70, 80, I don't need more than that.
Speaker A:Whereas if you ask them, oh, are you concerned about cancer?
Speaker A:I'm sure everybody would say yes, that is something that you'd want to get help with and whatever.
Speaker A:So do you think the fact that longevity sounds like a luxury and not really a necessity or really at the crux of what it is?
Speaker A:Because the opposite of longevity is really the aging really as a disease.
Speaker A:And I know I've had lots of people on the podcast and I've spoken to various people that say that aging should really be classified as a disease, which it is, and not as an inevitable thing.
Speaker A:And just the rich and the, you know, the Brian Johnson's of this world are trying to live forever 100%.
Speaker C:I think you are definitely on the right path there.
Speaker C:And I think this is a huge issue.
Speaker C:But not the only issue.
Speaker C:I think also the word longevity has pretty bad branding due to people like Brian Johnson.
Speaker C:For example, on the one hand, the things you mentioned so that longevity is this luxury thing.
Speaker C:Brian Johnson spends 2 million bucks a year on his health.
Speaker C:How is the government supposed to do anything about this?
Speaker C:This is only for the rich people.
Speaker C:This is one thing which is not doing longevity any good or not doing the preventative medicine movement as well.
Speaker C:Any good.
Speaker C:But then secondly, also it's the thing of fringe science, like people pushing again, expensive protocols, mostly things like huge red light panels or sauna beds, or I don't know, things like IHT, which is a machine which costs like 3K or Plasma, Furesis, TPE, things like this.
Speaker C:All of those things cost like 3 to 10K.
Speaker C:And I think one of the main problems is that first of all, most people think that longevity is way too expensive.
Speaker C:And then secondly, the things that are being pushed often by influencers are mostly not the things which move the needle.
Speaker C:The things that move the needle are the basics.
Speaker C:But this is pretty boring.
Speaker C:Like people don't really want to hear this all of the time, but they should.
Speaker C:That's one thing.
Speaker C:And then like, obviously influencers can make the most amount of money if they do brand partnerships with companies who have a lot of money.
Speaker C:And companies who have a lot of money are mostly companies selling those wellness products even like red light panels or different diagnostics or wellness clinics even.
Speaker C:We, we do have some across Europe where you can get your, they call it like treatments, beauty treatments or I don't know, mitochondrial treatments.
Speaker C:There are a whole lot of different things out there.
Speaker C:Nad plus treatments, infusions, different things out there.
Speaker C: hem are definitely not in the: Speaker C:They are maybe in the last 5% of optimization.
Speaker C:So we shouldn't focus on that.
Speaker C:But most of the, the people out there think longevity is exactly, this is exactly around those optimization tactics, those treatments.
Speaker C:But in fact it's actually not.
Speaker C:And so I think it's still a marketing problem in terms of people now are aware of longevity, but they don't equate the right things with longevity I think is the issue here.
Speaker A:So what are the right things and what can we do that it doesn't cost us tens of thousands of pounds, Euros, dollars.
Speaker C:As I said, basic blood values cost €100.
Speaker C:Maybe you can even get the most important things for I think €50 depends where you live, obviously.
Speaker C:I mean even if you can spend 50 or €100 for those things, you can still do most of the basics as good as you can.
Speaker C:As I said earlier, shift workers, for example, obviously they can't have perfect sleeve.
Speaker C:How could they?
Speaker C:It's just simply not possible.
Speaker C:But still on the days where they don't have the shift work, they can still improve their habits.
Speaker C:Also on the days of shift work, they can still try to balance the circadian rhythm with sunlight exposure or light therapy, different things.
Speaker C:So they can still do stuff.
Speaker C:Obviously they can have the perfect routine and probably nobody except like Brian Johnson can have the perfect routine, but you can still do something.
Speaker C:And if you really think about it, also in terms of going to the gym, going for a run takes like 30 to 45 minutes.
Speaker C:You don't need to spend like two to three hours in the gym or like having a long one every day.
Speaker C:For most people it doesn't really make sense and it's not needed.
Speaker C:Like the things which move the needle most are also the small things like walking pretty much every day.
Speaker C:I don't know, five to seven thousand steps is better than nothing.
Speaker C:Just do it.
Speaker C:And you can also have a phone conversation while you are working.
Speaker C:So those are things which most people actually can do.
Speaker C:Then in terms of nutrition, obviously if you spend like lots amount of money on the best fruits out there from a farmer's market, all in the highest quality.
Speaker C:This will be quite expensive, but you can still buy like food, which is healthy and doesn't necessarily need to be extremely expensive to be totally honest.
Speaker C:Especially if you, if you buy at the local store and don't go to the restaurant all of the time.
Speaker C:I mean, everybody needs to decide for themselves and really needs to be honest with themselves.
Speaker C:What are the things that you can actually do without stressing too much.
Speaker C:But I think everybody can improve and still can do things.
Speaker C:Even if you have a complicated life, even if you have a complicated job, even if you are a shift worker, you can still do things.
Speaker C:You probably can't have the perfect routine, but as I said, no need.
Speaker A:Is there an order of what you consider is the most important or most effective, free or very small cost things that we can do?
Speaker A:And you know, without the testing, just somebody's listening and they're like, you know what?
Speaker A:Niko has a point.
Speaker A:I want to do something for myself and I'm not going to have all the tests done, but I do want to do something for myself.
Speaker A:Where should they start?
Speaker A:What's the most important thing?
Speaker C:There's different research pointing in different directions, what the most important thing actually is.
Speaker C:And I'm not sure if we can even say that there is this one thing which is most important.
Speaker C:Also we all have different biologies, we all work somewhat differently.
Speaker C:So I don't think this perfect solution for everybody.
Speaker C:But things which are pretty easy to do and for like pretty much everybody have enormous benefits.
Speaker C:For example, like just one hour before bed, instead of watching tv, just read a book.
Speaker C:This does several things.
Speaker C:Like this improves your circadian rhythm.
Speaker C:You don't have blue light, blue bright light late in the day, you have probably less stress than you would have because you have a wind down routine and you are just laying in bed, you are just really relaxing and reading your book.
Speaker C:This does also things for your mental health and then also in the end it improves your sleep.
Speaker C:So this is a thing which is pretty easy to do, which is basically free.
Speaker C:I mean, you need to buy a book.
Speaker C:But yeah, I think that's fine.
Speaker A:You can go to the library or.
Speaker C:You can go to the library.
Speaker C:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker C:So this is one thing pretty much everybody can do.
Speaker C:And then also at least do some exercise, at least go for a walk every day.
Speaker C:That's like the bare minimum.
Speaker C:Everybody should do this, Everybody.
Speaker C:And, and then if you want to do more, I mean, do some strength training, maybe go to the gym twice A week, that's probably enough.
Speaker C:Or if you can at least do like push ups to pull up, do some squats like at home.
Speaker C:You can all you can do this at home and then go for a run like at least once a week, maybe twice a week.
Speaker C:If you can go to the gym like one or two times a week, go for a run one or two times a week, you're pretty much doing pretty well.
Speaker C:Obviously you can improve, but this is pretty good already.
Speaker C:If you can incorporate this into your daily routine without stressing too much, this would have enormous gains.
Speaker C:And then also spend time with friends and family.
Speaker C:Community is such an important and such an underrated factor.
Speaker C:There was a Harvard study done which looked epidemiologically at the population, I forgot which population exactly.
Speaker C:But old people, people who grew old and the factors which influenced a long and happy life.
Speaker C:Most the number one factor was community.
Speaker C:That's definitely a thing you should do.
Speaker C:Just spend time more with your friends, with your family.
Speaker C:Don't watch too much tv, just hang out with your friends, that's a better option.
Speaker C:And yeah, I think those three things think everybody should do great things and.
Speaker A:They're all for free.
Speaker A:Looking into the future, how do you see the field of longevity evolving?
Speaker A:And what are you most looking forward to in the changes that will hopefully come in the field of longevity and.
Speaker C:All that it brings due to AI and also AI helping with incredible research right now I think we will move way faster in terms of research in the next couple of years and this could equate to new exciting, maybe medications or different treatments who are actually then science based, who actually work to just pretty much shown to people I would say and because as of right now most, most of the things lack science, most of the things lack evidence and we don't really know if anything works and then most of the things are way expensive.
Speaker C:So if you would have evidence, if we would have science to back those things up, this would be a step into the right direction.
Speaker C:Then again going back to the basics, shifting the focus from all those expensive treatments, again most of them are lacking evidence more towards the things which actually move the needle.
Speaker C:Sleep, mental health, nutrition, sports and, and all of this also a shift in, in terms of social media.
Speaker C:So maybe trying to get people to do the basics and then maybe talk about a little bit about the other things which maybe can even make you some money.
Speaker C:But one thing I hope longevity is moving more towards or also new startups are popping up, maybe even with the help of AI is the problem of adherence.
Speaker C:So really helping people to stay on the right track, really helping people to get their nutrition on board, helping them to get the best possible work out for their schedule and for their personal life things improving this would be amazing and I think AI could be of good help here.
Speaker C:I hope the future is heading towards this direction.
Speaker C:I fear that it is not and that we still focus too much on the fringe subjects that people are pushing the narratives of.
Speaker C:I don't know if new substances coming out, having interesting mechanistic evidence, completely lacking human evidence.
Speaker C:And this then is on the forefront of, of everybody's minds simply because it's all over social media.
Speaker C:I feel that the industry is going more towards this direction but obviously I hope it is not and I hope people are pushing back.
Speaker C:People are focusing on the, the basics first and then afterwards focus on the stuff which maybe works, maybe doesn't work.
Speaker C:This is the last step, as I said, the last 5%, 2%, maybe even 1%.
Speaker C:So we definitely need to shift the mindset here.
Speaker A:Quite a gloomy prospect there.
Speaker A:Do you think that maybe AI can also help to make it more accessible for the person that can't afford to spend, never mind £16,000, dollars, whatever, but even a hundred or do you think that it'll widen the gap even further between the people that can afford it and the people that can't afford it?
Speaker C:Don't think it will necessarily widen the gap but I'm not sure if it's the best solution as of right now.
Speaker C:Like most LLMs, they still hallucinate quite a lot.
Speaker C:They still depend on your input.
Speaker C:For example, if you push them more towards those fringe signs direction they will mostly talk about the things which are on the less evidence based side like the newest longevity peptides, stem cell therapies, exosome therapies.
Speaker C:The LLMs will pretty much do what you tell them to do.
Speaker C:They will mostly don't correct you.
Speaker C:They will mostly not step in and say okay look, this is not evidence based right now.
Speaker C:Maybe do X, Y, Z first and then talk to a practitioner, talk to a physician and then maybe decide if you really want to try this out.
Speaker C:Look for the downside, this is just simply not happening.
Speaker C:So we would need guardrails for AI in order for AI to be a proper solution for such a problem.
Speaker C:But I don't think we will get this because people like AI as it is right now.
Speaker C:People don't like guardrails most of the time.
Speaker C:People don't like regulations.
Speaker C:So don't think we will move into this direction.
Speaker C:Maybe in the future there will be startups helping with this.
Speaker C:I recently read that there's a new startup in the US having the first licensed and also able to prescribe medications.
Speaker C:The first licensed physician, AI physician, which is completely based on AI and the AI can actually prescribe some medications and also give you some medical recommendations which is strictly regulated even in the us.
Speaker C:Not as strictly as in Germany or Europe, but still.
Speaker C:And they managed to somehow I don't know how get this through.
Speaker C:And yeah, now it's working and it's quite cheap.
Speaker C:I think even there's a free tier with this new startup so it would make things way more accessible.
Speaker C:But it really depends on how good the product in the end is how the recommendations are, if they're actually evidence based, if the system will push back, if you talk about some fringe subjects or things which you probably shouldn't do as of right now or at least you need to consider the downsides to.
Speaker C:So this really depends.
Speaker C:I haven't tried the eye doctor.
Speaker C:I would love to, but yeah, it's at least interesting.
Speaker C:So maybe this will solve the gap or this will solve the affordability problem, who knows?
Speaker A:I like that.
Speaker A:At least you leave us on a little bit of a positive.
Speaker C:I hope so.
Speaker A:At least with a glimmer of hope too.
Speaker A:Nico, that was super interesting.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:I always finish with some rapid fire questions.
Speaker A:What's the single best piece of advice you would give your younger self?
Speaker C:Don't stress too much, do less things and do the things you do less better.
Speaker A:Name one habit everyone should adopt for a longer, healthier life.
Speaker C:Probably read a book before sleep.
Speaker C:I think that's a good one.
Speaker A:If you weren't in the longevity science field, what career would you have chosen?
Speaker C:Probably mostly interested in venture capital.
Speaker C:So like funding startups, really helping entrepreneurs to push their ideas forward.
Speaker C:I love innovation, I love the entrepreneurship ecosystem.
Speaker C:So this would probably be the direction.
Speaker A:I would head towards what microdose habits, sort of five minute routine or small daily action yields outsized longevity benefits.
Speaker C:Depends on the person.
Speaker C:But breathwork for me at least like five to ten minutes of breathwork sessions.
Speaker C:Best case outdoors, best case with some morning sunlight.
Speaker C:They do wonders for your nervous system.
Speaker A:What's the craziest longevity myth you've encountered and is there any truth to it?
Speaker C:There are so many things out there.
Speaker C:Like I mean the craziest one probably is that drinking your own urine is a good idea.
Speaker C:Yep, that was on social media.
Speaker C:Couldn't believe it either.
Speaker A:But yeah, that's a note to finish on is all I can say.
Speaker A:So just to double check, you don't think there's any truth?
Speaker C:Not at all.
Speaker C:Please don't do it.
Speaker A:I just wanted to make that clear, you know, just to.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Nico, thank you so much.
Speaker A:That was so interesting.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:My guest today on Beyond Longevity is Nico Hems from Years, a longevity clinic based in Berlin.
Speaker B:What makes this conversation interesting is that he works in a field, field built around testing and prevention.
Speaker B:Yet Nico is very candid about the fact that more testing is not always better and not everything being sold in longevity is actually helping people.
Speaker B:In this conversation, we talk about what people are really looking for when they seek out longevity care, what good prevention should mean in practice, and why more testing can sometimes create more confusion.
Speaker B:Confusion than clarity.
Speaker B:Nico is very clear that not every test is necessarily useful, that data on its own does not solve much, and that one of the more uncomfortable realities in this space is the widening gap between those who can afford extensive testing and those who cannot.
Speaker B:We also talk about something even more fundamental, which is that many of the biggest gains and long term health are not glamorous, high tech or expensive sleep exercise.
Speaker B:And the basics still matter enormously, even in a field increasingly crowded with advanced tools, bold claims and promises of precision.
Speaker B:So this is a conversation about hype and substance, access and inequality, and what it would take to build a model of health that is not just more sophisticated, but actually more useful.
